【 彦島で熱く語る!!一覧に戻る | 使い方とお願い | 日子の島TOP
 投稿番号:103372 投稿日:2010年12月02日 01時06分40秒  パスワード
 お名前:空の青海のあを
12月3日はNASAの宇宙人論争ライブ

コメントの種類 :生活  パスワード

http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/30/nasa-makes-astrobiology-discovery-schedules-press-conference/

我が家は明日は夫のMRI検査が予定されているので見られませんが。

[1]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月02日 01時11分20秒 ) パスワード

コピペしておきます:


NASA makes 'astrobiology discovery,' schedules press conference for Thursday to discuss alien life

記事 By Vlad Savov posted Nov 30th 2010 7:47AM

So NASA seems to have made some hot new astrobiology discovery, but just like the tech companies we're more used to dealing with,

it's holding the saucy details under embargo until 2PM on Thursday.


That's when it's got a press conference scheduled to discuss its findings, which we're only told "will impact the search for evidence of extraterrestrial life." It's unlikely, therefore, that little green (or brown, or red, or blue) men have been captured somewhere on the dark side of the moon, but there'll definitely be some impactful news coming within only a couple of days. NASA promises a live online stream of the event, which we'll naturally be glued to come Thursday.
[2]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月02日 01時35分15秒 ) パスワード

http://calendar.nasa.gov/calendar/

アメリカ東部時間では12月2日午後2時からね。
[3]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月02日 23時24分08秒 ) パスワード

http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/

このサイトから見られるのかな?
テレビのNASAのチャンネルでも見られるらしいけど。

放送時間は1時間なので「どこだ?どこだ?」とやってる内に終わってしまうのでは?
と思います。


日本時間では午前4時かな?
午前4時〜5時。
[4]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時13分58秒 ) パスワード

12月の雑談にも書きましたが

「大山鳴動して鼠1匹」というハナシでした。

みんなETみたいな宇宙人の話かと期待してたのに
砒素を食べるバクテリアのハナシだったということで
ガッカリだったようです。



我が家は突然予定がキャンセルになってNASAのテレビを見ようとしましたが
NASA関係者だけ進入オーケーというアクセスはチェックできなかったので
どのサイトで放送しているのか見られなかったです。

30分かかって繋がったサイトでは「考古学」の番組を放送してました。


大変な時間の無駄になりました。
[5]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時23分45秒 ) パスワード

説明が難しいのでmnsの記事をコピペしておきます:


「ヒ素を食べるバクテリア」発見、初の元素置換生物 NASA発表
2010.12.3 04:00

カリフォルニア州のモノ湖で見つかったヒ素を食べるバクテリア(電子顕微鏡写真、サイエンス提供) 生物にとって必要とされるリンの代わりに有毒なヒ素を摂取し、遺伝情報を担うDNAにも利用するバクテリアが、米カリフォルニア州の塩湖で発見された。生体を構成する主要元素を、別の元素で代用できる生物が見つかったのは初めて。生物の概念を広げる発見で、地球外生命の探索でも視野を広げる必要がありそうだ。米航空宇宙局(NASA)などの研究チームが、2日付の米科学誌「サイエンス」(電子版)に発表した。

 「ヒ素を食べるバクテリア」が発見されたのは、米カリフォルニア州東部のモノ湖。アルカリ性で塩分濃度が高く、ヒ素などの有毒物質も多く含まれている。生物にとっては過酷な極限環境だ。

 NASAの研究者らは採取したバクテリアを研究室で培養し、リンがない環境下でも増殖することを確認。生命活動を担っていたリンをヒ素に置き換えて、生命を維持していることを実証した。バクテリアが摂取したヒ素が、細胞に入り込んでいく様子を「放射性トレーサー」という手法で詳しく追跡すると、ヒ素はDNAまで到達し、完全にリンと置き換わっていた。

 生物の体は主に炭素、水素、酸素、窒素、硫黄、リンの6つの元素でできている。リンはDNAなどの核酸や脂質、タンパク質などの生体高分子が必要とするリン酸塩をつくる重要な元素だ。これに対し、ヒ素はさまざまな酵素の働きを阻害するため生体にとって極めて高い毒性を持ち、古くから毒薬やネズミ駆除剤として使われてきた。
[6]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時25分01秒 ) パスワード

 一方、元素の周期表ではヒ素(原子番号33)はリン(原子番号15)のすぐ下に位置し、化学的には似通った性質を備えている。生体を構成する元素を、性質の似た元素で置き換えた生物の存在は、理論的には予想されていたが、実際に主要元素を置き換えた生物は見つかっていなかった。

 今回の発見で、主要元素が欠乏した極限環境でも、元素の置き換えによって生物が存在できる可能性が示唆され、地球外生命も幅広く考える必要がありそうだ。
[7]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時26分23秒 ) パスワード

http://sankei.jp.msn.com/science/science/101203/scn1012030400000-n1.htm

産経ニュースのようです。
[8]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時29分24秒 ) パスワード

このハナシ、数年前に、既に出てて
だから
発表者の名前から「ああ、あの話か」と「12月2日は ET発見! という意味じゃないぞ」と言われてたそうです。
[9]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時37分27秒 ) パスワード

ディスカバリー誌の記事:

Mono Lake bacteria build their DNA using arsenic (and no, this isn’t about aliens)

Arsenic isn’t exactly something you want to eat. It has a deserved reputation as a powerful poison. It has been used as a murder weapon and it contaminates the drinking water of millions of people. It’s about as antagonistic to life as a chemical can get. But in California’s Mono Lake, Felisa Wolfe-Simon has discovered bacteria that not only shrug off arsenic’s toxic effects, but positively thrive on it. They can even incorporate the poisonous element into their proteins and DNA, using it in place of phosphorus.

Out of the hundred-plus elements in existence, life is mostly made up of just six: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, sulphur and phosphorus. This elite clique is meant to be irreplaceable. But the Mono Lake bacteria may have broken their dependence on one of the group – phosphorus – by swapping it for arsenic. If that’s right, they would be the only known living things to do this.

The discovery is amazing, but it’s easy to go overboard with it. For example, this breathlessly hyperbolic piece, published last year, suggests that finding such bacteria would be “one of the most significant scientific discoveries of all time”. It would imply that “Mono Lake was home to a form of life biologically distinct from all other known life on Earth” and “strongly suggest that life got started on our planet not once, but at least twice”.

The results do nothing of the sort. For a start, the bacteria – a strain known as GFAJ-1 – don’t depend on arsenic. They still contain detectable levels of phosphorus in their molecules and they actually grow better on phosphorus if given the chance. It’s just that they might be able to do without this typically essential element – an extreme and impressive ability in itself.

Nor do the bacteria belong to a second branch of life on Earth – the so-called “shadow biosphere” that Wolfe-Simon talked about a year ago. When she studied the genes of these arsenic-lovers, she found that they belong to a group called the Oceanospirillales. They are no stranger to difficult diets. Bacteria from the same order are munching away at the oil that was spilled into the Gulf of Mexico earlier this year. They aren’t a parallel branch of life; they’re very much part of the same tree that the rest of us belong to.

That doesn’t, however, make them any less extraordinary.

Phosphorus helps to form the backbone of DNA and it’s a crucial part of ATP, the molecule that acts as a cell’s energy currency. Arsenic sits just below phosphorus in the periodic table. The two elements have such similar properties that arsenic can usurp the place of phosphorus in many chemical reactions. But arsenic is a poor understudy – when it stands in for phosphorus, it produces similar but less stable products. This partially explains why the element is so toxic. But the bacteria of Mono Lake have clearly found a way to cope with this.

They have every reason to do so. Mono Lake sits in a sealed basin close to California’s Yosemite National Park. With no outlet connecting it to other bodies of water, any chemicals flowing into the lake tend to stay there. As a result, the lake has built up some of the highest concentrations of arsenic on the planet. To survive here, bacteria have to be able to cope with the poison.


コレかな?
In 2008, Ronald Oremland (who was also involved in the latest study) discovered bacteria in Mono Lake that can fuel themselves on arsenic. Like plants, they can photosynthesise, creating their own food using the power of the sun. But where plants use water in this reaction, the bacteria used arsenic. Wolfe-Simon has taken these discoveries a step further, by showing that the bacteria are actually incorporating arsenic into their most important of molecules.

She took sediment from Mono Lake and added it to Petri dishes containing a soup of vitamins and other nutrients, but not a trace of phosphorus. She took samples from these dishes and added them to fresh ones, gradually diluting them to remove any phosphorus that might have stowed away onboard. And all the while, she added more and more arsenic.

Amazingly, bacteria still grew in the dishes. Wolfe-Simon isolated one of these arsenic-lovers – a strain called GFAJ-1. Using an extremely sensitive technique called ICP-MS that measures the concentrations of different elements, she showed that the cells of these bacteria did indeed contain large amounts of arsenic.

By giving the bacteria a mildly radioactive form of arsenic, Wolfe-Simon could also track where the element ended up in the cells. The answer: everywhere. There was arsenic in the bacteria’s proteins and in their fat molecules. It had replaced phosphorus in many important molecules including ATP and glucose (a sugar). It was even in their DNA, a conclusion that Wolfe-Simon backed up with a number of other techniques. All other life uses phosphorus to create the backbone of the famous double helix, but GFAJ-1’s DNA had a spine of arsenic.

It’s an amazing result, but even here, there is room for doubt. As mentioned, Wolfe-Simon still found a smidgen of phosphorus in the bacteria by the end of the experiment. The levels were so low that the bacteria shouldn’t have been able to grow but it’s still not clear how important this phosphorus fraction is. Would the bacteria have genuinely been able to survive if there was no phosphorus at all?

Nor is it clear if the arsenic-based molecules are part of the bacteria’s natural portfolio. Bear in mind that Wolfe-Simon cultured these extreme microbes using ever-increasing levels of arsenic. In doing so, she might have artificially selected for bacteria that can use arsenic in place of phosphorus, causing the denizens of Mono Lake to evolve new abilities (or overplay existing ones) under the extreme conditions of the experiment.

Other species can cope with arsenic too. Some switch on genes that give them resistance to arsenic poisoning, while others can even “breathe” using arsenate. But GFAJ-1 uses the element to an even greater extent. How does it manage?

Under the microscope, the bacteria become around 50% larger if they grow on arsenic compared to phosphorus, and they develop large internal compartments called vacuoles. These might be the key to their success. Wolfe-Simon thinks that the vacuoles could act as a safe haven for unstable arsenic-based molecules – they might contain chemicals that steady the molecules, and they might keep out water that would hasten their breakdown.

These are questions for future research. In the mean time, the angle being used to sell the story is that this might have implications for alien life. Of course, the results have nothing to do with aliens. If anything, they expand the possibilities of what alien life might look like. If bacteria on Earth can exist using a biochemistry that’s very different to that of other microbes, it stands to reason that aliens could do the same.

That hasn’t stopped the hype machine from rolling forward, fuelled by a public announcement from NASA, teasing a press conference about an “astrobiology discovery”. It’s a shame. In teasing their own press conference two days ahead of time, and refusing to budge on the embargo when the first information trickled in, NASA effectively muzzled everyone who knew about the actual story while allowing speculation to build to fever pitch.

That may, of course, be their intention. However, I can’t help but feel that the result will be a lot of disappointed people, who’ve been robbed of an opportunity to be excited about a genuinely interesting discovery.

Update: John Sutherland from the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology at Cambridge adds to the skepticism. He notes that arsenic-based compounds are “not sufficiently stable in water for the phosphorus to arsenic substitution implied in this paper to be functional” and the arsenic-phosphorus swap hasn’t been demonstrated by the study’s experiments in a “chemically rigorous manner”. For Sutherland, the acid test would be actually synthesising a double helix of arsenic-based DNA and characterising its structure in detail. You could then use the data from that analysis “as a reference point” to examine the DNA from the Lake Mono bacteria. “This has not been done,” he notes, and even if it were, the existing evidence suggests that the molecule would break apart when it’s exposed to water.

Reference: Science http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1197258
[10]空の青海のあをさんからのコメント(2010年12月04日 17時41分32秒 ) パスワード

上記の Wolfe-Simon

この人が今回のNASAの発表に出て来た人物だそうです。

それで、みんな、「な〜んだ、ET発見! という発表じゃないんだ」と分かったんだそうです。
 【 彦島で熱く語る!!一覧に戻る
この投稿に対する
コメント
注意  HTMLタグは使えませんが、改行は反映されます。
 http://xxx.xxx/xxx/xxx や xxx@xxx.xxx のように記述すると自動的にリンクがはられます。
お名前 (省略不可)
削除用パスワード (省略不可8文字以内)
メールアドレス (省略不可)
URL
 ホームページをお持ちの方のみURLを記入して下さい
◇Copyright(C) 2000 c-radio.net. All Rights Reserved.◇  DB-BBS-system V1.25 Rapha.